MONTY THE ANSWER
MAN ARCHIVE
BRAKES
AND WHEELS
BRAKE MASTER
CYLINDER PROBLEM...(5299)
Subject: Re: brake master cyl prob
From: Steve Wilson <SteveWlson@aol.com>
Jim,
I have a problem with the master cyls out of N3876K. Remembering that
the airplane hasn't flown since 1965 and heaven only knows that happened
to it during those years, it is not remarkable that the cyls are frozen
up. To give you some idea, the keepers in the front had rusted and when
I tried to remove them they fell apart.
Steve,
I guess you'll have to do whatever it takes to get them apart. Do you
have a hydraulic pump of any sort? A hand pump that will pump 1000 psi
or more might work. Plumb a hose into the outlet port and apply some high
pressure. (you can "T" in a gauge) The aluminum pistons are probably corroded
to the steel cylinders. Yes, you may have to apply heat. Having said this,
the cylinders or pistons or other parts are probably junk. The only
source for any of these that I know of is salvage, so start looking. A
local guy adapted some Cleveland master cylinders. (see your Aircraft
Spruce catalogue) This may be the best long-term solution for all of us.
-- Jim
CLEVELAND BRAKE
CHROME DISCS...
Are chrome disks for Cleveland brakes better than the plain steel? Swifter
Steve Wilson (SteveWlson@aol.com) writes... Chrome disks are about $100
more than the plain steel. I like the chrome OK. There is no difference
in the braking. The chrome will eventually wear off and the disks will
rust just like the plain steel ones, but in the meantime they look nice
and you benefit from low wear on the linings. The problem with any rusted
disks is that they wear out the brake linings. With the present cost of
linings (since they did away with asbestos), it actually might make the
chrome disks a better deal financially too. Enjoy the Clevelands. They
are so much easier to maintain than the Goodyear brakes. -- Steve
Wilson
GOOP IN THE BRAKE
LINES???
Was checking through the information on the Swift site and noticed an
article on hydraulic fluid turning into goo in the break lines. I owned
N90305 for about 13 years and never had this problem. Then we used Mil
3586 (Red) in the system. But back at the start of WWII the Army Airfare
also used Mil 3580 (Blue) fluid. If I remember correctly the 3580 was
an alcohol mix that was used in airplanes with natural rubber o rings
and tubes and the 3586 was used with the new synthetic rubber parts that
were just coming on line. If these were mixed in a system it turned into
a goo that precluded use of the system. Just a thought. Auto hydraulic
fluid has an alcohol base. -- Larry Simms (larrys@abs.net)
WHEEL COVERS...(6399)
From: Jim Letourneau <lletourn@pressenter.com>
Subject: Re: Wheel Covers
Did the Temco's have the domed covers originally? I have one that needs
to be replaced and before I make one I'm curious if I should be trying
to duplicate the dome. I have Cleveland's, as you know. If there are any
stock ones around will they fit? Are there any stock ones around?
Jim:
Yes, the wheel covers were actually a Goodyear p/n. They are the same
for all Swifts, high or low flange brakes, with a dome. The Cleveland
wheels are a little different in diameter and most Swifts with Clevelands
just use flat covers, which don't look as good as the originals. I don't
know of any standard wheel covers that will work. -- Jim
THAT'S THE "BRAKES"...
(11499)
From: George McClellan <WWIIPILOT@aol.com>
Subject: Re: brake repairs
I own a GC1B N655S, I have Cleveland disk brakes and what appears to be
stock toe brake masters. I have tried every thing to get better braking
action with no luck. Is it possible that I have a high volume low pressure
master trying to work a low volume high pressure slave? What masters should
I have. I have a master that is leaking now and need to know weather to
rebuild or replace. Thanks, George McClellan
George,
There is not a problem using the original master cylinders with the Cleveland
brakes. There could be several problems. The brakes may need a thorough
bleeding. The Cleveland brake linings need a "brake in" procedure. If
the linings are glazed, they might have to be replaced or at least removed
and sanded down to remove the surface material. The "brake in" procedure
is published and comes with the brake kit. This is part of the STC paperwork
and should be retained in the aircraft records as Instructions for Continued
Airworthiness. Also, the "O" rings in the wheel cylinders may need replacing,
or simply removal and coating with petroleum jelly.
Then there are the cups
in the master cylinders themselves... Much has been written recently about
this subject. You can't just run out and buy new original master cylinders
these days, as a matter of fact it may be hard to get good, serviceable
rubber cups for the original master cylinders. If you have a leaking master
cylinder that may be a simple "O" ring replacement. (if anything related
to removal of the master cylinders can be called "simple")! I'm sure with
a little attention you can your his brakes working properly. -- Jim
BRAKE MASTER CYLINDER
REMOVAL... (11599)
From: George McClellan <WWIIPILOT@aol.com>
Subject: Re: brakes
Thanks for the comments. To date the rotor's are true and the linings
are not glazed and the system has been bled with care several times. As
for the lubrication of the O rings, I will have to look at that. I have
to stand very hard to get any breaking action. I think that two holes
in the floor so I could drag my feet would be more effective than what
I have now. What is the time required to remove the masters ? George
George:
To remove the master cylinders depends on your physical condition! 30
years ago, it was just a miserable job, but now at my age and condition
its pretty near impossible! It involves laying on your back with the emergency
crank down handle poking a hole in your back and trying to get your bifocals
to focus on the nuts, bolts, and cotter keys to remove the cylinders.
If you remove the seats and pad the spar area, including the crank down
handle and if you can see without bifocals, it's not too bad a job. As
a check, raise the airplane on jacks and have someone apply and release
the brakes. Observe the action at the wheel. Is it sluggish? Can you rotate
the wheel by hand? You say the linings are not glazed, well, removing
them and sanding them might still be worth a try. It's easy to do with
Cleveland's. A hint for bleeding Cleveland brakes, remove the brake head
from the axle, leaving the 1/4" brake hose intact. Loosen any clamps as
necessary. Bleed the brake holding it up as high as possible, like higher
than the wing. You sometimes get additional air out of the system this
way. -- Jim
GUEST ANSWER MAN STEVE
WILSON RE: GEORGE'S BRAKE PROBLEM...
From: Steve Wilson <SteveWlson@aol.com>
Subject: Re: brake repairs
George,
I read your questions and the answer from Jim Montague regarding your
brakes. I don't know what experience you have with the Swift vs other
airplanes and just wanted to add a little (non-mechanical) info regarding
Swift brakes.
I started out like a lot
of folks with Goodyear brakes. They really worked great! In fact you had
to be a little careful not to get on them too hard and cause the airplane
to go over on its nose. The first thing I noticed when I went to Cleveland
brakes was that they were not as effective as I had been used to. Personally,
I do not think this is a bad thing. Not that I would want to, but I think
it would be very difficult to get the Cleveland's to lock up on application.
I've stood on them pretty darned hard a few times. Most of the people
I have let taxi my airplane, who are used to modern "nose dragging" airplanes,
complain that there are not enough brakes. I disagree with them. There
are plenty of brakes available. Now just to set the record straight, I've
flown many Swifts with all the common brakes and mine is no different
from the others. Also I completely overhauled my brake system throughout
in 1996. It came out the same as before, but no leaking.
George, you may have some
mechanical problems (certainly the leak needs tending to), but I just
wonder if you are not experiencing "normal" braking for the Cleveland
brakes on a Swift. Just a thought. If you need help, feel free to contact
me. Good luck... Steve W
MORE FROM GEORGE AND
STEVE RE: BRAKES...
From: Steve Wilson <SteveWlson@aol.com>
Subject: Re: brake repairs
In a message dated 99-11-22 06:13:33 EST, you write:
<< Thanks Steve, I think I will start from scratch this winter.
I just hope I can find parts for the Masters. Has fluid corrosion been
a problem? Has anyone rebored to a metric size cup ? "ALL" your comments
have been true and I agree that brakes on tail draggers are meant for
PARKING. George M >>
George,
The master cyls have suffered quite a bit over the years. I don't know
of a suitable replacement, although I have heard there are some. I have
"cleaned" up several original cyls enough to get them to work and not
leak. When they are corroded, I use a 12 ga. shotgun wire brush and run
it in the cyls until the rough edges are off the pits. It is not possible
to get all of the pits out, but I've had a lot of luck just getting the
edges smoothed out. I've used the "U" cups supplied by "Swift Parts" in
the past. With the current problems I don't know their status, but I think
Joe can supply the correct part number. I have not really shopped it,
however. One thing I do is to partially "back flush" the system each year
at the annual. In a closed system like brakes there is the potential for
a lot of problems to creep in and not be noticed (see Dick Collins' comments
in the newsletter a few years ago about Mil H-5606 gum formation). What
I do is use a squeegee to remove the fluid from the reservoir, then pump
fluid through one brake (slave) cyl until it partially fills the reservoir,
then repeat the process with the other brake. Then I clean out the reservoir
for the final time and fill with fresh fluid. This of course does not
purge the entire system at once, but over two or three years, it does
the job. When I think about airplanes flying around that have never done
this, I think I am ahead of the game. Please stay in touch and let me
know what you find... Steve W
SWELLING BRAKE HOSES...
(11599)
From: MarkH85@aol.com
Subject: Re: GTS Internet Update#4
Denis ,
About George's brake problem, We had a brake that didn't work too good
and the problem was the brake hoses were swelling up when pedel pressure
was applied. About the number of Swifts , It depends what a person would
call a Swift, You're about right but if you count paper work only Swifts,
its a few more. Mark
MORE ON THE BRAKE ISSUE...
(11699)
From: Donald Williams <donaldwilliams@prodigy.net>
Subject: Swift brakes, don't make them hard to do, they are not.
The operation is easy. If you have a good solid pedal that gets solid
without excessive travel then the masters and lines are good. If this
is your situation then the problem is in the slaves which can both be
rebuilt and bled in two hours. Remove the clips then wheels then the brake
line then caliper. You can use the master or air to push out the piston
and puck. If you use the master leave the brake line connected until you
push out the piston with the brake pedal. Use a piece of scotch bright
or very fine wet or dry sand paper to clean the cylinder portion of the
caliper. If you use wet or dry then follow up with scotch bright and very
carefully flush the entire assembly with laquer thinner or spray brake
cleaner. Cleanliness is next to godliness. Lube the new O ring with either
slicone greese or petrolatum and reasemble and bleed. If my pucks have
been contaminated with any 5606 then I soak them overnight in laquer thinner
to remove any trace of petroleum products. The pucks and rotors must be
free of any petroleum to work right. My family has owned N80901 for more
than 25 years. Don Williams
YET EVEN MORE ON THE
BRAKE ISSUE... (11699)
From: Wesley & Susan Knettle <wsknettl@centuryinter.net>
Subject: Re: November #5 GTS Internet Update
Re: MarkH85's (Mark Holliday) comments on brake hoses for George's brake
problem. I have found this many times. Can be caused by old age where
the hoses liner collapses then plugs the line when you push on the pedal
or can happen from contamination with the wrong brake fluids. Have an
observor watch each flexible brake hose while you apply pressure to the
pedal. If the hose grows and the brake doesn't then you know what is next.
On
to page two about brakes and wheels...
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